Natasha Lyonne, Rian Johnson Explain Shift

[This story contains spoilers from the three-episode premiere of Poker Face season two.]

Poker Face is back and after watching the first three episodes of season two, you may be wondering if creator-writer-director Rian Johnson just resolved the show’s over-arching hook.

The first season of the murder-mystery-of-the-week show starring writer-director Natasha Lyonne introduced Lyonne’s detective protagonist, Charlie Cale, as a fugitive with an extraordinary ability to determine when someone is lying, which helps her solve murders that she stumbles upon. As she hit the road in her Plymouth Barracuda trying to outrun the mob boss trying to kill her (played by Ron Perlman) and his henchman (Benjamin Bratt), she solved a new murder mystery each episode. The season functioned in a standalone format, but had an over-arching big bad tying it all together, and the cliffhanger season one finale put new mob boss Beatrix Hasp (Rhea Perlman) on Charlie’s trail.

That finale set up a second season that opened with Charlie still on the run when the first three episodes of the 12-episode season released on Thursday. The third episode, titled “Whack-a-Mole,” however, closed the book on Hasp. Charlie, with the help of her FBI pal Agent Luca (Simon Helberg), caught Hasp and brokered a deal with the show’s villain to leave Charlie alone; John Mulaney and Richard Kind also guest starred. When the show returns with its fourth episode, Charlie will be free of the mob boss albatross as she sets out on a more existential road trip this season.

Below, Johnson and Lyonne talk to The Hollywood Reporter about returning after such a well-received launch season (also with new showrunner Tony Tost), how they again landed the most eye-popping guest cast on television (“There’s a real element of chaos and nail-biting, last-minute brinkmanship,” says Johnson of casting) and why they decided to transform Poker Face into a true standalone show (at least for the rest of the first 10 episodes sent to press): “Anything can actually happen in this show.”

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After such a successful, well-liked first season, what was it like going back for round two and trying to keep up that pace?

RIAN JOHNSON From my perspective, it was less bad pressure. When we put the first season out there, it was like, “Okay, this is a thing we really like. Let’s see if this works.” Audiences really responded to it. In the second season, it’s not like we were trying to push it someplace different or reinvent the wheel. We wanted to keep doing it and just get better at doing it. So in that way, the success of the first season and the fact that audiences were into it was nothing but a good thing. It shows us the basic engine that this thing really works, and gave us permission to then try and see where else we could drive the car.

You spoke to me about casting guest stars for season one, and how you wrote your list of dream actors and reached out to them yourselves along with your casting team. Were your Hollywood friends and peers then pitching you to come play for season two?

JOHNSON Yeah, definitely. As with everything with casting, it’s all about actual scheduling! There’s the wish list and then there’s—

NATASHA LYONNE — the famous catchphrase #techavail. I think that a lot of people have dreams. But then when you actually go to ask, it turns out they’re working on something else. (Laughs)

JOHNSON Right, exactly. And because we don’t cast the show all in an orderly fashion in the beginning — we’re casting week to week — there is a real element, honestly, of chaos and nail-biting, last-minute brinkmanship (laughs) in terms of getting everything locked into place. But that also leads to a bunch of situations where Natasha and I are just texting our friends. It will be somebody we just ran into at a party where they’re like, “I’d love to be in one.” And then we’re like, “Oh, do you want to show up on Tuesday and play the lead in this episode?” (Laughs) So, that combined with more traditional work from our casting directors Mary Vernieu and Brett Howe, somehow we scramble through it and get it done.

LYONNE Rian’s been calling it laying a track as a train is approaching.

JOHNSON The train’s rolling, and you’re laying down the track!

LYONNE I like that analogy. It reminds me of our cell phone text thread from the actual making of season two of Poker Face, and season one also. It’s really a roller coaster. We did have Megan Thee Stallion for about 20 seconds on a Sunday, but it came and went… she was coming into New York two weeks later. (Laughs)

Was there anyone from season one you couldn’t get that you brought back this season?

LYONNE Noah Segan, the character that he is, found his way back on the show. So that was a delight! [Note: Segan appears in every Johnson project.]

JOHNSON I feel like we may have tried for [Alia] Shawkat and Awkwafina back in season one? Seems likely. But they were busy. We did a table read with Shawkat for season one.

LYONNE A table read on my sofa.

JOHNSON A sofa read!

LYONNE Noah Segan was also there. That was a nice day. Also, Fred Armisen: not tech avail, both seasons in a row. But he texts us both constantly trying to place himself. Remember?

JOHNSON “I want to be in the show!” Yeah, we had a fantasy of having Fred end every show kind of like the Crypt Keeper with Tales From the Crypt — with just a two-wall set of a graveyard and there would be the coffin of whoever died in the episode and Fred would be in overalls as the gravedigger direct addressing the camera to end every episode saying, “Well, I didn’t think Charlie was going to get that one!” and make some pun. “We’ll see you next time!”

LYONNE We’ve been waiting for him to be available! (Laughs) Rian’s written it 47 times. But Fred is always gigging — Giggin’ Fred, that’s why they call him that!

Well instead you have Steve Buscemi in this over-arching voice over role, as Charlie’s CB radio buddy. He’s credited as “Good Buddy,” and Charlie talks to him throughout the season.

JOHNSON [to Lyonne] You could have texted Steve. I didn’t know him. That was directly through Mary [Vernieu]. And that happened very, very late because he was just a voice on the CB. You performed most of those scenes and we had no idea who was going to to be that person.

LYONNE I would have changed everything, had I known [when I filmed it that] it was Steve!

Who was on the other line while you read your lines?

JOHNSON I’m sure different people.

LYONNE I thought it was going to be Phyllis Diller — and then Rian broke the news to me that she had passed some time ago, you could only imagine. I adore Steve, but, you know, just a totally different performance with Phyllis than it is with Steve. So we did have to go back in… and change nothing. So we didn’t go back in, dear reader! Steve’s great. (Laughs)

JOHNSON He’s wonderful. He’s great. Because of the CB radio and he is called Good Buddy, we had imagined that it would have been [someone with] more of a Southern accent, but Steve ended up being just perfect. You want to get wisdom.

LYONNE That’s funny because whenever I see him, he affects a southern accent and is like [impersonating Buscemi with an accent] “Howdy, partner!” And he’s with Fred, usually — on a two-wall set.

JOHNSON (Laughs) It’s a long bit, yeah.

Natasha, you have some fun reunions this season [Orange Is the New Black former co-stars Taylor Schilling and Adrienne C. Moore], even though you and Melanie Lynskey [But I’m a Cheerleader] don’t act together in her episode. [Note: Lynskey stars opposite John Cho in episode eight.]

LYONNE Yes, [Melanie and I] passing each other in a stairwell hallway, being like, “We’ve known each other for 25 years. Wait, you’re here! You get to set OK? Well, all right, I guess I’ll see you in the next movie that we do, which I’m sure is to come!”

Who were you guys really excited to have landed for season two?

JOHNSON I feel like every episode has [that], but: Cynthia [Erivo]. Because I directed that episode [the premiere], I’m biased.

LYONNE She did play five to six characters. Rian and Cynthia together was very joyful. That was very fun. And you have five to six Cynthias. [Note: Erivo plays quintuplets.]

JOHNSON But also you two together, with all the fireworks with the multiple characters, there’s the scenes where you’re just bonding with [one of her characters] DeDe, her character who’s the most grounded. Those are really beautiful scenes, just the two of you.

LYONNE We really spoke the same language. Making things is a little bit like plucking ideas from the ether, and wrangling them. And when you’re all playing the same song in the same key, it’s fun when that happens organically.

How tempted were you to bring season one people back? You only did a little bit.

JOHNSON Very tempted, and that’s something that I always wanted to keep open, because I feel like that’s a very TV thing to do — like Patrick McGoohan in Columbo coming back to play multiple bad guys. I love that idea. And yeah, we didn’t really end up doing it this season. Other than Noah Segan coming back to play another part. [Rhea Perlman and Simon Helberg reprise their roles.]

LYONNE He’s in all your movies, I’m just going to tell you right now, spoiler alert! Noah and I also go back a great deal. I’ve known him as a little punk teenager; we took a road trip one time to make a movie together — he drove from Los Angeles to San Francisco. So he’s been in all of our movies. He’s here for this interview right now! (Laughs)

Speaking of Rian casting Easter eggs, Joseph Gordon-Levitt is also name-dropped this season [though he doesn’t appear, the Johnson collaborator also starred in a season one episode].

JOHNSON Yes, we got Joe in there in spirit. We got to mention, Joe.

LYONNE And in a way, Clea DuVall also, because she plays [Charlie’s] sister in season one, and came back to direct episode [10] in season two.

In season one you had the overarching hook of mob bosses chasing Charlie, which continued with the cliffhanger season one finale to keep Charlie on the run amid her weekly escapades. You resolve that in the third episode, giving Charlie and the show a clean slate from here on out. [The first three episodes released together, followed by a weekly release.] Why did you want to resolve that so early and set season two on more of an existential ride for Charlie?

JOHNSON It was something that came about in the writers room, and it came really naturally. I’m always trying to make sure in the writers room that we’re focused on the episodic nature of the show, and it’s fun to think of what the journey is over the course of the season. But the thing that really makes the show work is this idea that you can watch any episode and it’ll be a complete meal and you don’t really need the context around it to enjoy it, which is how I grew up experiencing TV as a kid. I miss that form of storytelling. So it’s about focusing on that and also not wanting to have the show be a pattern where every season a different mob boss chasing her until the finale boss-Charlie confrontation, and wanting to break it up for the audience so that it feels like anything can actually happen in this show.

Natasha, what excited you about exploring this version of Charlie?

LYONNE If you’re wondering where I go in time and space, I was just picturing [James] Gandolfini and [Marlon] Brando as mob bosses in Poker Face. So, how did I feel about the existential turn of events? Well, as somebody presently ruminating about Gandolfini, I’m usually fairly existential at all times. It’s a comfy haven for me. I guess everything has a bit of an existential panache in this life. But I do like that Charlie doesn’t really get lost in that messy bog. She kind of keeps her sun at her back despite that. I like that it doesn’t quite pull her down, or prevent her from having connections with other human beings, as it sometimes can do in real life.

That decision does set up a show that could go on and on. Is that the goal?

LYONNE It’s nice that we get to do this. It’s really a nice thing, that we get to have all the pals around and that we get to have each other. I keep pitching this purgatory season, where you reunite all the dead characters. It’s sort of a spinoff: “Tales from the Grift.”

You see the procedural model working well for broadcast television. Rian, you said maybe you would unpeel the onion of Charlie a bit more after season one, but it seems you went in a different direction. Is there more of an appetite for the week-to-week format?

JOHNSON People seem to be responding to it from the first season. I think if you try and read the tea leaves too much in terms of trying to predict broader trends of what type of shows people are going to be into or not, you can get yourself in trouble. You just have to make something that you want to see. And for me personally, whether it’s broadcast or streaming, the notion of now having 22 episodes of Poker Face on Peacock so you can drop in and say, “I heard the one with Joseph Gordon-Levitt is great.” And then click and enjoy it? That is a form of storytelling that I really enjoy. That’s also how I first really experienced Columbo. I’d seen it on TV as a kid, but binging it on streaming during lockdown was how I rediscovered it as an adult. There were a bunch of episodes, a whole bucket of new stuff to discover and I don’t feel like I have to binge it from beginning to end. I can hop around. I know I enjoy it and we’ll see how people end up enjoying it.

LYONNE Wasn’t Columbo over the course of 40 years or something, Rian?

JOHNSON: The last episode of Columbo was in 2003. It’s wild. The first episode was in the ‘70s.

You could be doing this for 30 more years!

LYONNE Age is nothing but a number. That’s what I always tell Rian when he is shame spiraling and texting me in the middle of the night. I’m like, “Rian, baby, chill. Age ain’t nothing but a number.”

Natasha, you direct the finale, and you directed last season as well. It looks like you are telling a more continuous story at the end of the season, since you have characters returning over multiple episodes. Is there a thread you’re setting up for season three?

JOHNSON It’s something that — in a really fun, unexpected way — caps the season. It’s not just another Poker Face episode. It’s a finale-finale for the season. It’s really fun and weird, and Natasha did a hell of a job directing it. It’s almost like the last two are a two-parter. Ti West directed episode 11 and Natasha directed 12 [the finale], and you have two beautiful, beautiful brains concocting this one-two punch that is so surprising. We didn’t even show it to the press.  

Taylor Schilling returns for the final two. What can you tease?

LYONNE I was so moved that she showed up. That was also a late-night text. I was texting Rian on the one side, telling him, “Go easy,” and then she really showed up for it, and it’s so fun when Rian and Taylor are there. You really feel like you’re in a movie. It’s very fun to direct at the end of the season because we’re not worried about scheduling the next location. So there’s a practical element to directing first and last, which is what [Rian and I] did this year.

Natasha, you made headline news recently with your feature directorial debut, AI hybrid movie Uncanny Valley, which made me think about Russian Doll and wonder if you will do more of that?

LYONNE [The movie is] something that [co-writer, co-star] Brit Marling and I have been digging into. It’s a lot of fun. In creating Russian Doll, I sort of fell into a lot of mathematics — Doug Hofstadter’s I Am a Strange Loop and Carlo Rovelli’s The Order of Time — and this existential threat of AI. Rian is producing an [untitled] movie that Joe [Gordon-Levitt] and I are also working on, that Joe is hoping to direct, that also deals with that AI existential threat. So it’s been on my radar for some time, and this Uncanny Valley movie is interesting and timely.

And if there’s any misnomers, let me clear them up: the movie is shot like a movie with production designers and cinematographers and actors, and really, the foundational model [for the AI story] almost functions in the way a green screen might on a Marvel movie. What’s exciting for Brit and I was to be able to do it at scale for the augmented reality. We’re doing this video game thing where the main character gets stuck in this open world gaming of an augmented reality world, so the build out of that will be able to be at scale in a way that wouldn’t be otherwise. But it’s a hybrid film meaning that it’s all shot practically — and no department heads were killed in the making of this!

And what about doing more Russian Doll?

LYONNE Well, in a weird way, I see a life as a long Russian doll. So I guess if David Lynch taught us anything, it’s never be shocked with Fire Walk With Me and then Twin Peaks: The Return. So I guess whether it’s Poker Face or Russian Doll or Uncanny Valley or whatever they are, they do their little life tricks. I learn a lot from that Twin Peaks of it all, and now having been in this business for, well, too long, — four decades, and dead for at least half of it — I guess I realize that things are always unfolding. I never get too percolated about anything in its moment in time. That’s what all the hubbub and noise is for.

Russian Doll is eternal. So I do think it’ll be back at some point. I just have to put pen to paper, and I’m doing all these other things. So, you got to really write them, is the thing. One thing at a time! I’m hella excited about season two of Poker Face and, dare I said it, I’m hella excited about Uncanny Valley part one… and Russian Doll 3, why not?

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Poker Face releases new season two episodes Thursdays on Peacock.